052:Mental Health in Pest Control: 28 Years in the Industry | Stuart Haymes

0:00 Hello and welcome to Best Perspectives episode 52. And I did see you all last night with the Bedbug Queen limited and I'm going to admit this is Stuart now. I hope he's not offended because I was getting ready for the gym earlier and he messaged me saying have you got a web? Have you got a web link for me? Guess who went and forgot? Forgot I've got a podcast. Me. What a prat. It was no problem. We sorted the problem now that quickly. But I was like, my message goes, you did say something about that date.

0:36 I remember now, some reason didn't go on the Google Calendar, but yeah, sorry about that. But we're here, we've sorted it. We have some weeks. Last year I did a few where I had two a week sometimes. So last year I think I got through something like 47 podcasts in a year or something. Something like that. You say? How do? You get the time for it all. Love it Well, people ask me that what way do you get all the time I don't I I do it I love it like I'm on the board of directs for the MPTAI do my own can pest control.

1:13 I'm always working on something, but it's positive it is but tonight we have on on episode 52 of pest perspective. It's a podcast where it's it's about education and we try and entertain as well. And you can also earn CBD points for the British Pest register and the BPCA self register. And you're going to have to hop back with me people about basis prompt because I've got to do the podcast and submit them to get the codes. If you're wondering why I have to submit what's been learned and then I get approval.

1:52 So it's going to take me a little bit longer to get them. It will, but everyone knows how abase this is, but they're still accommodating my podcast. So that's all good. So today I have got Stuart Haynes, founder of heart to heart recovery and productions. He started his career in pest control and he and do you want to, do you want to, do you want to say a little bit about yourself? I mean, I started when I was 17. I got taken on by. It was Terminix at the time. Transition from Peter Cox to Terminix.

2:29 OK. Or to do the Woking Borough Council contract. OK. About to get special insurance policies because the the age of driving was 21 there for the vans. Oh, OK, yeah. I, I was, I was only 17. So yeah, I got, I got taken on to the Wokenberg Council, but my career started as a technician, yeah. There's Jason popping in. Yeah. So you say you got started there, did you? Did they? Did they frame you up then there? My dad was in pest control, my dad was open company and I started off. I actually wanted to be an environmental health officer.

3:12 Yeah. Experience at school with Sutton Borough EHO team.

3:20 They weren't very well liked. You were that guy that walked in. It's like, Oh my God, it's him, you know. And I thought, I thought, don't want to spend the rest of my career being hated by people or do I want to be the guy on the good side of things Because obviously I got to see all sides of the EHO. You do? Yeah. Pest control. I thought, I like this. It's problem solving is something that I've well unknowedly fitted my ADHD at the time things and new ways of getting around things. And I thought I quite like this, the problem solving side of it.

3:51 So I thought I'd rather stick on this side of the fence and be that guy that goes through the door thinking, Oh, it's seeing brilliant. How are you doing than being, Oh my God, it's you, you know?

4:01 Yeah, that's a really good point. I just want to skip. I don't do this on the air. People giving me good feedback. Thanks for that. Cheers. I hate getting feedback. It's it's good, but when someone does it right at me.

4:20 But yeah, but thanks for the feedback. But yeah, no, that's good to me. Decided on joining the pest control side rather than staying on the EHO side, which there. Was more question for me. There was a lot of obviously I have heard that when you train to be an EHO, it's about half a day or a day of pest control and that's it. That's all the that's all you learn, really. I find quite shocking the amount of pest related issues in in F&B. There is, there is because it's like another guy who's been on there, Matt, Matt O'Donnell from IX5 Pest Control in not Northampton.

5:04 He was an environmental health officer, but he's, he's got a pest control firm now. But what he's got, he's got a, a course specifically for Ehos and he's, he said people, they send them from all around the country to go to his and he teaches them how to do their job better and know from the, you know, giving them a greater understanding than what their course does. And he, he advertises it and they come from all over. So he he does that to help them be better at their job because a lot of them don't really always know that much.

5:40 It's not their main focus. Yeah, it's not, it's. But now you have a few. Yeah. So technically I have had a EHO officer, but not an. He's not an active one, obviously. But now it's good to hear. Very sorry. They're. Very knowledgeable in what they do. Oh, I've never acted. I've never had any issues with my paperwork with Ehos, but I've never seen one. I've never come across one on my on my visits or anything. I haven't. Yeah, I've worked with quite a few over the years because working for the borough councils had a problem on their site.

6:18 Sometimes you would get invited to go down there and try and get to the bottom of the issue with them. I was always wondering whether that was a conflict of interest because it's like if you do it a council site. Yeah. And the EHO you're telling your own count, your own boss effectively that your your kitchen's an estate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't always help, but. But obviously you don't do that, do you? You know, but you don't. But. Same goal, aren't you? That you want to keep the open and obviously you want to please your customer by getting to the root cause of the problem, don't you?

6:54 But councils always say this is our preferred pest controller. However, as long as XYZ is done, it keeps them happy normally. Oh, that's true. I have had a someone ringing. It wasn't actually our client, it was a client's well basically a farmer that had a field next to this food business and he decided to ring the HO on US. Oh. Right. Didn't. Didn't do anything wrong. The HO came down and checked everything. It was all good. What was he going? Yeah, he was moaning that he's moaning that it was an issue in the field.

7:32 And I said doing everything we can and there was no issue, just that I don't know what his problem was, but it happens. But I've never met 1 yet. Yeah. Jason worked for his local council. He and he, he's worked closely with the HO as well when he worked for the council. So it kind of goes hand in hand. I imagine it does. So you're doing your job properly and obviously you're, we've, we've probably all seen our fair share of some bad examples of pest control over the years when you've visited certain sites and they're struggling with issues and you, you get to the bottom of the problems as to why the customers still got the issues, you know.

8:14 Yeah, yeah, it can be. It can even be things like they're not listening to you. Yeah. Because there are I've a couple of places. We, we, we not contract places, but places where they had an issue. And in the end, the way we did it, what told them that if you don't do this, you'll get shut down. None of you will be having, because they were laughing. None of you will have jobs if they get reported, this place will be shut down. Well, next thing you know, they, they, they sorted the problem out. So when I explained it that way, they did they did it, Yeah.

8:52 Yeah. I mean financially I think it's shut down for a period of days. I mean, when you look at the cost of that of, of being shut down and you look at the price of the pest control service and your reference for me it's. Not, but. Well, it is. Yeah, it is. It's where's your microphone then? Have you got your sure microphone? My microphone's right next to my computer here. Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, I can hear. I can hear you. I can hear you just. I was like, he's got a short microphone in his thumbnail picture, but where?

9:25 Is it? I've got a microphone next to my computer here. Oh, nice, nice, but but no to carry on. So where did, how long did you stay at Terminix for? Did you, were you just a normal technician or did you go through the ranks there or? There is a junior technician for about two, 2 1/2 years realised that I wanted to get involved with sales. But Terminix at the time, they wouldn't take me seriously because of my age. It was quite openly honest with me about that. And I found another company, it was Crystal at the time that wanted to take me on.

10:03 I mean, with having ADHD, I've always been good at talking. So they, they gave me the opportunity in sales and they said I'll come over by your hand at sales. And yeah, I was hitting all my targets. I've always been another ADHD thing. When you when you're invested in in something, you're fully invested in it. Out. Of my way to learn all I could within the industry and so yeah, I just went up through the ranks operations manager, sales, I've worked in sales leaper technician, but we're happiest was on the tools.

10:39 Yeah. Yeah, I've always been happier on the tools rather than being in the office. Never been in an office. I would really wouldn't know I wouldn't, but. Oh, it's not a. No, I won't imagine it is because obviously if you run in a firm and like people are working for you, it's a little bit different. But you ever been in that position? What's that? Have you owned your own pest control company before? Yeah, I've had my own pest control company, Perfect Pest Control. Perfect pest control. Yeah, I had it when I was in Oxted.

11:12 Yeah, it was going all right. The problem why that failed their bills I was doing. I was so much work people, invoices and obviously at the end of the day you've got your bills to pay Sean so. Oh, yeah. What we do is we stick the old card out, card reader out. You pay now. A lot of we've just made a change the way we do our state agents, they pay upfront. Oh, really? Yeah. And they, most of them have done it. And also, we had one recently said they'd do it. We we let the first visit go. We told them until you pay up, you're not getting your second visit.

11:50 Yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, generally, generally they actually do it. They do. Can you beat your microphone forward a bit? There's a little bit. It's cutting up a little bit just slightly. Yeah, it just, it just cuts up a little bit for a second or two. It does, but no, yeah, I mean, you see it up and down, up and down. People commenting people ain't paying the bills. That is the biggest problem because businesses need cash flow without any money. You you can't really because it's it's like we all say, I've had different guests on and pest controllers are good at doing their jobs.

12:30 When they set up businesses, the majority are not saying all the business side is is a lot of people struggle with, but game see it's different with commercial. They expect you to wait three months, don't they? It's yeah. That's our terms. No, you, you agree to our terms. Pay now. Yeah, unfortunately it doesn't work like that. And then they extend it past the three months, don't they? Wow, I've had them up in the small claims court from one before. Oh. Right, how, how, how many customers have you had to take to the Small Claims Court?

13:06 3 Oh right, was she successful? And every time? Off time? Wasn't it successful because the bloke didn't run up from the pub? Oh. No. We went we went to have a look recently inside it looks all empty. It's like got clothes for refurbishment. Yeah, but they were only they were people that were then they were all commercial. They were they were people that were I don't, I don't think they took us seriously. So sometimes it's like not big amounts, but it's more of the principle of the matter and we've and we've won where somebody tried to want to say that I didn't, I didn't agree to that payment amount and he signed a signed a document in the end, because we provided all the taxes.

13:54 It's all good and all that we won. But you can use all that as proof. I don't like to, don't get me wrong. It's not anything that's ever hurt our reputation over because it was when it's justified. It's when it's when like you, you help a business and then you help solve the problem like say squirrels. And they wanted, they wanted that top premium service and then they wouldn't. They took four weeks to pay the bill. Oh. It's shocking once they got their issue, obviously I've come across this time and time again.

14:29 Yeah, problem sorted for them. Or you put the initial treatment down and you get the vast amount of the problem under control. Go use Acts as an example. Then they're not interested in paying the bill at the end of the treatment. So since then we've obviously changed things. We're now digital and when you get your appointment for it, it states that you must pay at the door on the day or in advance. It makes me quite clear it is. Yeah. I mean, if I if I had my time again, I would do things very differently.

15:02 I mean. Because all you say to them is if you pay, even domestic customers say we have this policy. We say we have this policy. If you pay the bill, the chances are you'll be in next time I come. If you don't pay the bill, you probably won't be that bothered. And if they say fair enough, they do, you know, Jason says he got 95% of my contract paid a year. And he, yeah, most of ours do. To be fair, only very, very long standing customers get it monthly. It's not a thing we like. It's not but. Started in pest control.

15:37 We were still working off cards, Shawn. That's how many years ago. Yeah, too old.

15:45 Cards. I heard about these cars like a Rotodex. Are we talking? No, it was, it was your contract visit frequency. So you had your four sixes, 8/12/24 visits all on different colour and you ticked it you would tick the the visit number off and put a date in your comments on the back of the cards. I mean when you when you look at all the. You ain't that. You're not that odd. No 28, No. 44 now I'm. 41 What are we talking about? So. I started when I was 17, I'm 44 now so. How do you think card back then?

16:17 Were they? Yeah, card. Yeah. Now you look at the systems you've got on, Yeah. And everything else that you guys I. Suppose you are right. I mean, we weren't big on it. My dad was like, we're never going to go to digital. Never. And. Now I convinced him. We went to Pestech one year, MPTA's Pestech, and we had a look around. I'll tell you what took him a while, but he reckoned it's the best thing I've ever done. This is my paperwork. So much easier and faster. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the amount of times you used to do 8 or 10 maybe routine visits in a day and Oh my God, writing those reports out, each and every one of them would give the copy a customer.

17:00 The carbon copies put in a folder is the next one you get of in. It's like so. We have digital portals now and we say to them if you want to download it, you can and print it. But we're safe in the Earth. Yeah, yeah, save with the paper, you know. But most of them just leave it on their computers or or access on tablets for the Ehos or inspections. But if you want to print it, you can. Any form of treatment record fire on sites at all anymore these days or is everything on all on an online portal like your or hazard that your safety data sheets and everything else is it all on a on a portal is it?

17:41 You can put it all on the portal, you can, you can upload files to it and everything you can. So you don't have to have it all there. But if they want me to send it through separately on emails, I can. But it is, it is generally everything can be put in there. It wasn't at the start. I wasn't too impressed to start with when we're powered now, but since then they've brought in a system where everything can be stored on on on the folder. Any certificates you want to put on anything can be stored on on each client's portal now so you can go fully digital.

18:20 There's one contract a quarterly and now I have, I begrudge it's a quick contract. It takes me longer to get the pen pen out. I have to write pen and paper because they're I think you do know you're the only contract I have that wants paper. You sure you don't want digital? No, it's so much easier so. Why we're on the subjects of quarterly visits for opinion on quarterly visits, Sean. I'd rather they they went there any monitoring isn't there. Yeah, because you you can only put down obviously because mostly there's no issues, but like a lot of them end up getting paid more because they bring us all got issues.

19:05 We've got you've got to pay for treatment. Well, what they don't realise a lot of the time if they have

19:13 that say, they paid the quarterly and then they have a rat infestation and then another one later in the year, it's cheaper just to have the monthly service. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we, a lot of them don't get that. It's like, it's like I had a job recently where I had to do 2 separate visits 2 lots of times and he didn't have a court either. I thought you're nearly, you're nearly all the way to a yearly contract and how much he's paid. But he would some people can't see the logic in it. It works out cheaper.

19:47 But yeah, I would prefer everyone. I say monthly, but obviously I can send it on LinkedIn. A lot of people. Why do people say month? I don't know what to call it because we go a lot of companies go every six weeks, but we sometimes it it's within the month. So some a lot of the time it's well before the month end. So it could be two weeks and it could when we're in the area basically. So it's within that month, but quarterly we haven't. But I prefer they have the the monthlies but. It's a lot more grief all round, isn't it?

20:22 It's time you get there and. It's a monitoring set. I just say to him, it's a moral if you get an outbreak, I've got a child shared for infestation, you know, so, but they, they, it's a lot of them happily have it. And here's what it is. It's well, it is. It's, you know, I can't force them kind of, you know, a lot of them like the basic, but when they go, can I buy the certificate? I'm like, no, you cannot. No, not interested in that. I don't want I just want your paperwork to say it's good. No, but it doesn't work like that.

20:57 Yeah, go visit after you've given it the all clear and it's it's infested with rats. It's not going to go down too well with it. No, no, it's not. No. So did you work for any other companies anytime? Yeah, I've worked for Crystal Beaver, went back when it was Ecolab, OK. That part OK. Yeah, I went for, I've been to SHIELD. I looked after that was that was actually not a bad experience with SHIELD actually, because they held the royal warrant. So I got the I was fortunate enough to do the pest control for two years for Buckingham Palace and.

21:31 Parliament. Oh, right, I get what you mean. The Royal Warrant. OK, The Royal. Yeah, so I looked after the Buckingham Palace and the House of Parliament pest control for 2 1/2 years doing old auditing. So I got I got to see some fantastic things over over my years. I, I imagine though, like not obviously you can't give away any secrets, but you know, you came in and out of your pest control van, you obviously had to search your van, did they? Well, we had, we had party like a security Bay outside the gates.

22:02 Yeah. Put the van out there, you would take your your pest control bag in and it was like. Oh, so you said it wouldn't let you take the vehicle in. OK. Vehicle in so it's like going through a a like an airport check in. So we had to give all scanners we had to check your bags and everything else. Then we bit bit escorted in there. OK and we we were left to sort of to our own devices to our site site map. Let's go round so many kitchens in there, Sean, it was unbelievable. But. The biggest issue in there I'm sure I won't get any trouble to save anymore.

22:40 But yeah, it was carpet mod. Oh, well, yeah, I can imagine the expensive carpets and rugs and everything, yeah. Biggest issue, I mean their their kitchens were always Immaculate as you can imagine, but. Some of them weren't used at offer time, were they? No, I mean you had kitchens for desserts, you had kitchens for veggie veg prep. They literally cook a dinner and then they walk into a different kitchen to cook a dessert. I did not know that. Wow, how they were about half live. Prep for desserts and then, yeah, your vegetables and then your mains is going on over there.

23:18 Then you've got your areas, your freezer areas, then you've got all your underground basements. And it was incredible, yeah. I did not know they had separate kitchens for for that, like, right. Yeah. I imagine that. Was there a dessert chef then? Just makes desserts, everybody. Stations in their own in their own kitchen areas, doing their own things, people walking around and just seeing just the pure industrial scale of this set up in there. Did you ever, do you ever, did you ever see, did you ever see Her Majesty on your on your rounds?

23:54 Oh, I saw Prince William once. Yeah, OK. Did he wave at you or not? No, no. I didn't. I didn't sort of jump in for a selfie with him either. I thought about there's a lot of security around as you can. Imagine because you bet you're better to be professional there. A lot of people like it where, you know, if you have a, we have a celebrity customer, they actually love it if you don't fanboy them, love it where you treat them like a human being. But they love that they do. Yeah. Because I think any, I think a lot of them get bored of being celebrities.

24:31 It must get I, I know it's good to be that popular, but it must, after a bit get a bit. I dealt with it at a certain point. Only human as well, aren't they? I mean, when you come home space and you deserve to have a day off like everyone else and. You think you're right. I'm really impressed that you've actually done pest control for the Yeah, the palace. That was definitely, that was definitely the highlight of my career, without a doubt. That's. That's good. That is. Yeah. Now you're the first one on the podcast to ever mention that, so well done.

25:04 There you go. I'm. It right in me 28 years then. But yeah, no, it's did you ever do any? Did you did you do woodworm treatments at all? There's. Something we had at the time. When When industry you had specialist teams that they'd done woodworm much a specialist field and something I never really did get involved with. I mean, Rensico at the time were massive into woodworm treatments. I don't know who the the leading they. Still, they still do it now. Do they? Yeah, I mean. What what, What is the quality of their process of me looking at your face?

25:44 You're not that impressed. I can't I'm not going to say on that. I'll tell you after the podcast, I'm not going to get myself into trouble some things, but just to have a look at woodworm. I'm not talking about just to have a look. If you got one, some of the price is just to go and have a look. That lonely, you know, but everyone does it. They are the big boys. They are. They are. But, but now it's we do a little bit of it, but our most of our works rat, my rats, my squirrel and Wasps in the summer.

26:19 Oh. Yeah, Wasps. They've never been the same, have they? I mean, I remember 20 odd years ago when literally I Remember Me and my dad for Sutton Council, he had Sutton Council contract and at one point we were doing 20 Wasps nests a day, each three of us there's 60 nests a day. And I can't think of a year since then that it's ever been quite that much. I mean it's. Always. I've had a I've had a summer where we've probably done 15 to 20 a day a few years ago now, but that's not three of us. Right.

26:57 OK, that's one. Van because I work. I work with my dad, so we work in Saint Van. We do. Doing 20 each. Yeah. See, that's, yeah, that's really big. And I can't remember a year quite like that in All in all my 28 years. No, it's, it was better year this year than that. Better year last year than the year before that was dead. Oh. Really. There was that year it did about 180 boss nests dead. That was, that's for the horse. But there's no flies that year. Even so, it goes in circles, doesn't it? They eat.

27:33 They eat flowers. And all the different. I mean, some weather. It puts everything out of whack, doesn't it? Yeah, well, they say every, every insect or animal has its year. That's what usually insects wise it is. But yeah, it's it's interesting though, very interesting so far. It is in in your journey. Have you done anything? Have you done anything else, as in anything like that's like that or? I have only been in pest control since the age of 17, so it's only been the last five months that I've actually come away from the job and it was down to my own personal mental health.

28:16 I had a mental health breakdown. I tried to take my own life. I was in the hospital for four days on heart monitors and, and magnesium drips and everything else. And yeah, I just, it just all got too much for me, Shawn, if I'm being honest with you mate, and I just, I might. I've only just been diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 44 years old. OK. Which that diagnosis has put so much of my life in perspective by knowing that now things that I've made, I'm always I've never, I've never got the ability to rest.

28:55 I can't tell you a time in my life where I've been able to fully relax.

29:00 When I'm on holiday, my mind's going tick, tick, tick, tick. Thing. So basically when you're asleep. Basically, it's the when I shut my eyes, I tell my friends that are close to me now. It's the only time I feel any peace in my life. John.

29:16 OK. And so with ADHD, you need, you need structure when you haven't got that. And look at pest control, for argument's sake. How many times have we all been pulled off of our day's work? Or can you just cover this one? Can you just cover this one? I'll go over to this. And my mind's already chaos, yeah. I can imagine because you, you've worked for quite big companies that would do that to you. Yeah, I can imagine because I, I hear that I, I've only ever worked for my dad, so I've only ever worked for small pest control, me and him.

29:49 So I don't know what it's like, but I have heard scenarios where their technicians get 5-10 minutes a job and they've got to go because they've got a massive schedule. And that must be plus we're being by yourself. That must put massive pressure, stress and anxiety. And especially if you now say it's been proven you've now got ADHD, that must have been even worse. That must have been. Terrific at times mate, it really was. And like you said, the amount of it goes back to the quality and quantity scale thing again, doesn't it?

30:19 I mean what? It does. You want the quality for the customer or do you want the jobs knocked out? Because if you go to a rat job time, you've done all your inspections. We know 9 times out sends it's linked to drains. You get the drain covers up, we look looking for our evidence, then we then we look at basing or getting cameras down there. I mean, I've lost, I've lost 22 odd hours on initial treatment before now and time because they won't take the jobs off you. So you've got, you know, you're going to be in for a late finish, getting home late again that day and it oh, it's just constant.

30:54 So that's what's obviously sucks the fun out the job you were you were passionate about because. You. You enjoy solving problems, but if you're told you must go to 15 jobs plus a day and went on the way home, you probably got rang saying can you just, can you just pull this one in on the way back? Yeah. So that affects your your life at home. It does, yeah. Your job. And then when you start looking at all these factors, you're not enjoying your job anymore. You're losing relationships, you're getting down about everything at home.

31:26 What, what, what are you getting out of life? Because we spend majority of our life working and if you're not in the small amount of time that you're not working, what what are we doing it all for? Exactly because it's, yeah, I haven't been in that position, but I completely see what you're saying. It must be an absolute nightmare and that must be very, very depressive. Obviously with with you working by yourself. Did you see many colleagues or friends often on the on the roads or not at all really.

32:01 Meet up or like to help each other out with some bait or dropping off materials or anything like that of we're passing in the office. But as you know, 9 times out of 10 you're in that van and it's just you and the customers. I mean, we've got some amazing customers over the years. You have a chat and that it's, yeah, it's quite a lonely place out there, isn't it? It is, it's in in BASF are always doing surveys on mental health and it's always comes up as very bad due to the main, the main problem come up.

32:34 I think in all the ones I've read in obviously the loneliness factor, that's the one that does it because I remember not the same industry, but I used to do it at pub where they had quite a big kitchen. And I'd say why, why is it all these chefs keep leaving? And the lad said to me, oh, do you know what it is? Don't you? Because they weren't employed anyone else, they've got a big kitchen. It's stressful. And he says, well, you've left your own, your own devices and your own fault. You get depressed.

33:06 He says that's what we said, it's mental wealth. And like I've seen like 2530 chefs leave within a year. Every time I'd come back, I'd see if there was a new chef in place. Yeah, and that's what it was, he said. That's the same same principle, wasn't it? Yeah, I've seen a few pest control companies like that as well. The. Stars, OK. Yeah. But I can honestly say in that in 28 years, I can't remember working for a company that I've had any talk in the workplace about mental health. Not in 28 years, Shawn.

33:42 I don't. I don't think it's a factor for a lot of companies. I don't know, I think has it changed at all now or is it still the same? Still pretty much the same, but it's the biggest. The stats show the biggest killer in in males aged aged 13 to 35 is, is suicide. But we're not talking of as an, as an as a. It's too much of A taboo subject and we we need to remove the stigma from it. It is because a lot, I'll tell you why a lot of them, a lot of pest controllers are scared to talk about it as well.

34:20 I'm not on about your general technicians. There's a lot of people that hold gun licences. If you have a gun licence and it it becomes known you've got a mental health issue, the police might remove your guns and then take your livelihood away if you shoot rats. And that's what a lot of them are scared of. But see the stigma? I got exactly what you're saying. I mean I I I held a firearms and shotgun licence for many years, friend of mine well before my mental health started deteriorating, but he had my firearms and shotgun licence still the place I wined it obviously.

35:00 And I mean, I have got children. If I felt I was a risk to myself or anyone else, I would quite happily surrender my licences. Yeah, that's, that's fair. I just brought up a point where some paper would say that's probably why they wouldn't, they wouldn't tell anyone. But yeah, it's not good to bottle it up, no. This is what we're trying to, this is what we're trying to remove My new business, Hearts Heart Recovery Productions, we're going to be doing corporate Wellness and mental health Wellness events.

35:30 Corporate businesses get this message into businesses. I would like to see companies invest more time in their staff for mental health because the pressures at work is having an impact on that individual

35:45 demanding from them every day we spend the job working and not with our loved ones or families. I would like to see invest the bit of mental health knowledge back into their workforce because their day-to-day duties are having an impact on their mental health and I think businesses should acknowledge that. They should, you're right. And because they say most, I don't know if there's a statistic on this, but a lot of people would have known or know of somebody who had suicide when I was younger. Good friend of mine, he was, he was a twin and he got depressed and no one knows why he did it, but I think he was in money, had money issues and he went and yeah, ended his life on a tree with a rope.

36:39 And unfortunately he texts his friend, which I don't think he should have done, but he can't take it back now can he? He says get here quick. So he didn't get there quick enough. And he felt for years guilty for his death when it weren't really his fault. It wasn't. Yeah, and I've finished a university course for suicide and self harm prevention, feel that passionate about it, I genuinely do. And the amount of other people it affects, it's not just the death of that person, it's the feelings on their colleagues, how that impacts the workplace, the feeling of loss around the office, the disruption.

37:20 Obviously times counselling for for colleagues is required. You don't know who it is, but there's no structure in businesses that I can see that seems to be set up for for people who are struggling and it worries me. So, so with this, what are you just any corporate businesses or have you got a target demo are you trying to go for? Is it just any businesses that are interested get? It into big companies that off of their mental health is worth investing in and if we can engage that. In fact, we partnered with Pure Water.

37:59 I've heard of them. I've heard of them. Oh, it's a massive 800 acre site. Amazing activities, outdoor water sports, cycling, archery, you name it. So I want to create these fun Wellness days, but I do in fun and enjoyable activities. You'll also get a a talk at the end of the experience, sort of going into the importance of mental health and and looking after yourself. It's definitely important. It is, but obviously another factor if you I'm not on about say obviously it's important to pass technicians on the road, but say you work in a job where it wise creativity, all that kind of forward thinking.

38:44 If your employees are in a bad state of mind, it will completely tank their creativity strategies, etcetera and the company going up upwards and upwards in you know, profitability etcetera. So it is an important factor. If you notice certain staff alike that their work rates dropping or their creativity has gone down as well, and that's probably what it may may be that would help, it would. Cost effectiveness of it, or if you've got a staff off with depression or you're investing a bit of time in their mental health and maybe not giving them so much work, but keeping the boat, the boat stable if you like, without overloading that person, you're more likely to have him work for longer, which is going to save the money in the long run.

39:30 Isn't it the business money? Definitely is it is. It's.

39:36 Yeah, you are right, though I would have thought in this day and age that they would have, you know how they, because a lot of some places do it, because I have seen, obviously it's voluntary and the companies have done it off their own back. They're not being forced by law. What are they called? You know you have first aiders. It's called a mental health first aider. A lot of places are starting to have them. I think that's a voluntary act, not a. You must do it and I think that their companies that invest in mental health.

40:16 I have seen, I can't think where a couple of plays. I've seen it on the board. You know, you have your first aiders, then picture them of the mental health first aid. I thought that's that's that's forward thinking. It is. Oddest part, that's people that they can talk and that is the biggest problem. I mean, we were, we were bought up with similar ages, Shawn. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Was weakness, wasn't it? I mean, it's not something spoke about or even understood properly when we were growing up.

40:48 I mean my. Parents, you weren't. Parents didn't know about ADHD. They didn't have a clue. It's not till sort of my generation now, this, this, all this. ADHD and mental health is coming to the forefront and people are starting to understand mental health and it's putting everything in perspective. I mean, by me having my diagnosis, it gives my children because it can be hereditary. A lot of the times it is. OK. It gives me the opportunity to give my kids a better quality of life because if they have it, we can deal with that early on before it wrecks 44 years of their life, you know?

41:25 Yeah, yeah. It's everything's been studied more now, isn't it? I've had, well, yeah, 34 years of research, didn't they? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you are right. It's everything's come forward and it's yeah, it wasn't really Yeah talked about, but I, I agree with it all. But what do you obviously is a real issue and I but there are some people which I you you know what I'm about to say, don't you? Yeah, yeah, Fake, fake it. There are people out there say they go and write a nasty Twitter post and they'll go, oh, I didn't mean it.

42:10 I was having a bad mental health day. That that just says to me that I don't think I think they just wanted to. It's not until they started getting loads of replies crap about it and it's suddenly it's either my account was hacked or was having a bad. Obviously people like that are just. Because unfortunately, like obviously there's a big crisis with NHS and there are people that probably ain't need the help, but the people that really need the help can't access it. I'm not saying I'm not, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's fake, but there are people that put it on against certain disability environments, etcetera.

42:52 But there are people, I'm, I'm not like generalising everyone, but there is a tiny demographic of people that do it and it annoys the hell out of me. It's hard to tell. Spin. On this, John putting an interest. In SO. We could say this about people on benefits, can we? Could. We? Could. We could say this about so many things in life that people quite being honest liberties and unfortunately people that ruin it for the rest of us. And I don't think look, look at what's happening with benefits, just they're still getting paid to people who deserve them, don't deserve them.

43:32 I don't think people with mental health struggles should be sidelined because there is a couple of people taking liberties. Is that no, I agree with you. I, I do agree. I just wanted to bring that little factor up. So I'm all for because I I did a walk for mental health last year because unfortunately it wasn't suicide. My brother was on his, my brother-in-law was on his motorbike doing the correct thing on the right side of the road and someone decided to overtake a car on a lorry and he died on impact.

44:08 And I did. His favourite charity was was mental health. No, sorry, it wasn't mines. I did a charity walk for mines before that in the year and I think I raised a lot of money on that one, £300 or more for mines. Then later in the year I did it for air ambulance. So I did 2 charity walks last year I did, but yeah I did a walk for that. But I get a tip if you go and walk in an air ambulance, give you a yellow T-shirt. I should have known as being a pest controller. The flights were coming for me, they were, but I did, I only did it once.

44:48 I didn't, I didn't wear it again. But yeah, earlier in the year of 2025, quite, very hard to erase. I think it was coming like 3 or £400 that time. But I raised more with the air ambulance one. But it all helps. It does. But yeah, for mine, I've got a medal and everything AT shirt. 50 miles. 50 miles over a month in walking each day. Going out walking I do. I think it's brilliant for your mental health going out. Definitely is. Another thing that's big for mental health is going to the gym. I absolutely love it because in 2024 April I broke my knee.

45:27 Right. No, sorry, I broke my knee in 2020 and Tebby and Phibia couldn't walk for three months, had to learn to rewalk. In the April 2024 I broke my knee again and that is what sparked my rehab in the gym. I've been going gym ever since I was nearly 30 stone so my mental health wasn't the best then. So you know, you know where you don't want to take pictures of yourself because you know you're big. I was like that and that was the Kickstarter. This can't happen again and ever since then I've lost.

46:00 I wasn't even 30 stone. I think I've lost probably I don't I I got more on my look, not the scales. I think I must have lost about 7 stone probably since then. But I do. I do a lot of weight training though. Weightlifting is my thing or. Bits online and so I can see you're always working out at bits and pieces now. Yeah, I do put a lot of stuff on I need to that I've seen you like my Instagram post. I've been slacking on Instagram and TikTok. I need to get posting all the clips up again because I've been slacking because I was pumping out loads of content like every platform, LinkedIn, Facebook a lot.

46:36 But I've got to try and get back into it again. I am with with that I'll. Be in your inbox now, pushing you into the gym. So where? Where's your post for this week, Sean? Oh, yeah, I'm making one earliest story. But Sid still was at the gym, so I took a picture of her. But yeah, but now I'm showing her what kit to you? She was like, how do I work this? I thought she she on the hack squat put down 20 KG. I'd say take that back off. Why? It says it's too much for you. All right, All right. Then I said did have a go.

47:10 And then she. Oh yeah, I think about take that off, you know? But you learn, don't you? I I work out most mornings as well when I can. I've just got some live free pieces at home but if I can't get out for a walk I'm I'm doing something indoors 100%. It just gets that dopamine level. It does better because somebody asked me recently, Kurt, who listens to the podcast, he asked me what's it do. They always talk about it does something for your mental health. It says. It doesn't obviously happen every when you start the gym.

47:46 I said you've got to gain your confidence at the gym. I says once you've got past that stage and you love it, the mental health endorphins, I says you can feel it. You feel really good. I said you might feel good after your first session, depending on how comfortable you are in the gym. It does, but it really boosts my my, my mental health after the gym. It's really, really good and during actually. Because. You get locked into the zone feel. Like you've really achieved some of it, don't you? You do?

48:18 I do love my deadlift. Yeah. I'm impressed. Yeah. I've got very strong legs for someone who's broke his broke his knee a couple of times. Can I ask? How did you do that to your knee, Sean?

48:32 Right in 2020, this was the bad one. I did lose weight during that period. I stacked it all back on. I did, and to a worse weight in 2024 with that actually in a client's garden. Luckily my dad was with me. I was walking across some grass with a, you know, tool kit bag. I clipped my ankle. I thought I broke my ankle. So I tried to get back up. I said to my dad, can't do it. I said I can't get up. I said I think I've broke something. So he he says, are you being serious? He said yeah and then I said I kept trying.

49:16 I said I'm going to have to bring an ambulance. The lady wasn't in. She felt so bad because you couldn't have got me out easier because of my size, could have rolled me straight through the garage. But it was on when he eventually got me up because he had to dose me up. They tried to get me up, pull me up, they had to dose me with the maximum amount of stuff they could give me. But he's one of them blow up seats. So I sat on the floor and I was going upwards, somehow got into the wheelchair from the wheelchair to the to the bed and the bed to the ambulance.

49:51 But I've never been in her garden ever since. She's had us out a few times and at that point let me get out of the van, he says. But yeah, and I did that and in and in 20/20/24, it was in my own garden. I was at the bottom of the garden picking up poo, got poo, didn't fall in poop. What am I OK? And they stupidly had a wet ball. There was a wet ball down, put pants on and my foot went on it and my foot went past me. And this was at my own house. I'm more I'm a lot more careful. But what am I said to admit this is you're going to have to get dad.

50:34 So I think I've broke my knee because you've got the wind out of me. But once you've broke your knee, when you get you have it happens again. You'll know if you've broke your knee. I can imagine it was extremely painful. Oh, it took the wind out of me. I was like trying to get my phone out to ring the missus from the bottom of the garden. And I says I think I have. I broke. I broke. I broke my kneecap. But this time they got me up. You got me up. But when I went to hospital, they sent me home. I said you've got to come back for a CAT scan.

51:07 They couldn't see the brake. So they gave me some like crutches to use. And they came back next the next day and they done the CAT scan. He says, yeah, you've cracked your kneecapping off. I was like, how was I walking around or, or how was I hopping around? I had to have surgery then I had to be awake for it because they've done some research. Apparently I 2020 I didn't come out of my It took a long time to Get Me Out of the anaesthesia, so that was a weird feeling. You can't feel your body down there.

51:40 Well, I can imagine. Yeah, but yeah, I'm all good now. I am to. Hear it? I'm still on the weight, the weight loss journey, but yeah, I, I love it. I do. Listen to that story. Put your put your knee pads on. Yeah, yeah, I, I the gym especially I've got, I've got really good knee pads. I have during, during the like big day. But yeah, you are right. But yeah, I'll try to be as careful as I can. Yeah. But that's the story beyond that, but. You know when you used to have to crawl along the the loft, Joyce It used to be really painful on my knees.

52:21 It did be much of it now because everything's got to be boarded, as you know, getting lost. I don't. I don't. Generally it ain't boarded. I don't. I don't, no. It's not worth what? Worth the risk of me falling through someone's. Back in the back in the day hello balance on the joists. A lot of the a lot of the old school guys until you we used to be. Some of the old school guys, some of the some of the old school guys still do that. Yeah, yeah. But. Health and safety wise wouldn't really allow you to do that, but most people as you know haven't got them boarded.

52:56 Not my own, but I have never gone through anyone's loft touch touch wood. But I've seen people that have and they're they're boots in the bedroom.

53:06 Terrible, terrible. I miss that you do it now and not being funny, you'll probably end up on social media. I know, I know, everything's getting me. Thanks. It's through the, you know. Actually, a reputation gone. Jason still does it, he says. I still do it lol. We've just put. I know. But yeah, but. Scaffolding normally you find it's like if we used to have a couple of back in the day, a couple of small scaffolds and then you put them across the joists. We should actually. Got we've actually got them, yeah, but haven't used them a long crawling boards, the metal or aluminium, whatever it is not used them in a long time though.

53:47 No. No, that was for something else. We were doing probably a woodworm job that was.

53:55 But now it's. Yeah. So how how are you doing now, Matt? Did you have to go like to get over your sorry, never get over it. Well, what what what happened? Did you have to have? What was the stages toward getting getting better as such? I think a lot of it was admitting that I was, I was at a bad place. I think for me, it goes back to us talking, talking about talking again. I mean, I I was bad. I should have died, Shawn. They said to me I should have had full organ failure. So I took a massive overdose of prescription drugs.

54:33 And yeah, I mean, it's not the first time I've taken several attempts in my life in several years, four of which I've ended up in hospital over. And it all relates back to this ADHD pressure that I've never been able to ever been able to fully understand or manage that I was just this fast. My friends have always said to me, you never stop. You never stop. And I quite literally never stop, Sean, until I get out in the evening and my body shuts down on me. That was the my entire life of 44 years I've had felt peace is when I shut my eyes and it's quite a sad state of affairs.

55:15 But in the morning and then I am like a greyhound out the trap every morning. Then my body will crush on me at lunchtime religiously every day where I burn all this energy bow asleep. And then I'm like that greyhound again from 2:00 straight out to when I go to bed at night. And sometimes it just gets too, too overwhelming just to be able to deal with it every single day.

55:42 It's obviously an ongoing, ongoing journey, isn't it? It's not, yeah. I mean you can. And I was masking a lot of it. I was masking a lot of it. I mean, I used to do about 6-7 cups of coffee a day just to keep me going as well. My body just wanted to crash. But I was sort of fighting against it with, with stimulants like coffee, etcetera, to get myself back to a normal place to be able to carry on my life. But my, my life was never running like like any other human beings would. I was, I was feeding it caffeine or whatever else to keep myself running.

56:18 Yeah.

56:22 So do you take as much caffeine now? Is that the have you loaded the caffeine or do you still take 7 coffees a day? No, I'm on absolute caffeine free everything now. I drink calm teas that don't appear. I've got a I've still got another four or five month wait to get my medication for my ADHD. Can you believe that I've been? I can't believe it. I can't believe it. Sadly, I can. By psychiatrists that I've got ADHD, that I've got see an ending company to be able to get on the right medication for my ADHD, and all articles on the Internet about people taking their own lives that have got mental health issues that are on waiting lists.

57:03 But what makes me an animal wouldn't be left to suffer for so long, would it? I don't know, I mean. No. No, you're is it, is there is there any stats on that then? Oh. I mean, if if like you look at animal cruelty and everything else, we're not allowed to let an animal suffer. Quite. Oh sorry what? I missed it there. If it was a what? Sorry. An animal wouldn't be left to suffer, would they? Right. Yes, sorry. Right. I misheard what you said there. I thought you said something else. We as human beings.

57:35 No, you are. You wouldn't let an animal suffer. You're right. Definitely wouldn't. We and myself and many other people are sitting here suffering and there's people right now their own lives over this, Sean. Oh, there is. It's it's yeah, because it's not enough support. There's not. There really isn't mate. Oh, I remember when obviously when you ring the doctors, they get a load of messages. And I listened to it once. So you didn't stay there for that long. But he said if this is a mental health issue, ring this number.

58:11 And I was thinking if you were really on the edge, that could have tipped you off the edge that could have, we don't want to speak to you go and ring someone else. Basically, if, if, if you were that, if you were in that state, hearing that, ring this number instead, you know? I mean, there's some fantastic organisations out there like the Samaritans and Shout and what if you need to talk? These guys are available 24/7. And, and I've, I've been up in some of these places myself. Genuinely, when you don't feel that necessarily you can speak to a loved one or someone else.

58:46 I mean, these, these people are, are amazing at what they do. And yeah, it's, it's important to talk. And that's the point that I wanted to this sort of conversation to go really, it's so important because how I'm still here to have this conversation with you, Sean, quite frankly. But I just wanted to make everyone aware that there is there is health available and try and bring that awareness into businesses a bit more, save a few more lives if we can. It's. Good to hear that. Yes, thanks for opening up because she's told me before earlier on that link on LinkedIn that this was the first time you've she talked about it.

59:22 And also I've got after this show, not saying you want to, but this is downloadable. So if you want me to send you the whole podcast and the clips and you can share and do whatever you want with the clips if you want to, whatever you want. It doesn't bother me if you want to use them for anything you can, your socials or whatever you do for your business. Word, mate, that's that's all I want to do. If we can save some more lives and just by sort of talking and creating some awareness, that'd be amazing.

59:52 And that's, that's, that's a good thing. So do you want to tell people if any pest businesses are listening or any businesses that listen that want to give their staff better mental health how how you can help them or how they can contact you I. Mean normally I mean the actual the organisation and how you deal with mental health that would be down to rate be down to HR departments to sort out. I mean, there's just some is available rising poor mental health, where to go for help of what you've got in businesses to support people that are are suffering who can talk to somebody at work.

1:00:32 But yeah, I mean, my, my DMS are always open to anyone if they want any ideas or anything on what they can install in their companies to be able to create that for people. And like I said, we'll be doing our mental health Wellness days, our corporate days. It's all the information hear you about that when the website goes live in a few weeks and it's a good way of coming down giving the giving everyone a good fun day because mental health, like we both said, being outside does us so good for our mental health.

1:01:01 So that into some fun activities outside and finished off with a Wellness talk telling you about the importance of mental health. It's the businesses giving Summit back to the staff in a in a way that they might sit there and listen to it as opposed to be bored to life in a in an office room, you know? Oh, no, you're definitely right. You are. It's it's a different, I don't know. It would be would be interesting if any pest firms did reach out to you for this, it will be because you wouldn't be able to, but that that would be pretty good.

1:01:31 That would be. Yeah, it's, it's tired of hearing it's the biggest killer in men's suicide. Like, literally, there's people, there's kids as young as 10 taking their own lives now, Sean, that's fact. It shouldn't happen, shouldn't. It shouldn't happen to anyone. But no, you didn't even have a life yet, have you? No, exactly. 10. No, it's terrible and they are installing mental health practises and education to their staff in schools now, which I've heard through the news channels, which is fantastic.

1:02:01 But yeah, I'd like to see companies a bit more because they do own their responsibility of pressure on individuals that are like businesses and I would like to see them just just recognising that and taking care of their staff on on that front anyway. No, it's definitely true. It's an important topic and I'll probably get people message me after saying great show because it is an important topic and it should be covered on the pest control podcast because although OK, it's not, it's still part of the business.

1:02:32 It affects a lot of people, not probably 99% of the industry probably. So it is an important topic. It's not been great. Experience mental health. It's if there's not many people that wouldn't have experienced a mental health problem at some stage in their life. Yeah. All right, there. I've been creative. This time there'll be 1 CPD point. It's not a number you're looking, Jason, it's a word. There you go. That one there, mindfulness, whether I spelled it right or not, but it will be, that will be the, that will be the question to pick for you.

1:03:11 One point it will be so, but I thank thanks for doing this. It was because of the year and it's it's raised awareness to to mental health and how to get help and what businesses can do to help their staff better. It's just just good to raise awareness. But once should I put what details do you want me to put in the descriptions? Your LinkedIn account or is there an e-mail or something? Put my LinkedIn accounts absolutely fine. Anyone's anybody DM me? I'm I'm always happy to reply to any DM just fine.

1:03:47 That's good tits. I don't know what. I look really red, don't I? I can't notice from here mate. No, but I I don't know what. I must be hot. I don't know. I'm not that red. I'm quite white. I don't know what's going on. Maybe it's the lighting in there. I don't know. But yeah. Thanks for coming on, Jason. Jason enjoyed it. Great talk. You guys take care, won't you? But yeah, thanks for coming on and if you hold on just a second, I'll just shut the stream down. I will have a chat for a second. Right.

1:04:16 Thanks, everyone. And this time I will see you next week on the podcast. I will. Thanks everyone.