044:Starting a Pest Control Business: Rodent Baits, Bed Bugs & Field Advice | Christopher Venables

0:00 hello and welcome to pest perspectives episode 44 even though you're probably seeing it say those 41 because i messed up again but it is episode 44 this week i have on christopher venables from venables pest control uh this podcast if you're new to the podcast it's It's a podcast that's made to entertain and educate. So if you can get something out of it, all the CPD schemes cover it. So whether you're with Brief Pass Register, BPCA and BASIS, but I've only got six codes for BASIS and they've already been used.

0:44 But please remember to log in with your CPD provider. um this week we have on christopher for venables venables from venables pest control how are you doing good thank you i've been at life in my bedroom not my office today i got my feet up i got a nice backrest so yes i'm good i'm good that's good it doesn't matter where you are you know you can connect from anywhere now can't you absolutely so um obviously you're you're uh got a pest control company but did you have you always had one no i used to be a while ago before pest control i used to be a gamekeeper um that was for a couple of years um uh then i left gamekeeping in 2002 i think it was uh sorry 2004 um but then i worked with my father for a while then moved down towards Gloucestershire and then became a member of the industry.

1:46 So in that sense do you mean you went to work did you go and work for another pest control firm? No not at all no no my father said it's about time I got qualified in something of a career um he funded my my um uh Irish Page Level 2 training and then I set up Venables Pest control here in gloucestershire i believe is in 2010 very nice you've been in the industry far longer than me then a little bit too long yeah you can tell by the wrinkles on my eyes you know yes yeah well if they're there they're definitely my dad set this firm i'm i'm in about over 10 years ago probably a lot more than that now but uh but yeah that's a good thing so you didn't ever have any experience working for a pest control firm then no i've worked with my father for a bit um that was a in our pest control he's semi-retired now um he comes down here um every now and again and shoots all my deer which is good um but uh yes um i worked with dad for oh a couple of years really on and off um just getting experience through it and then moved to gloucester still still have father as a bit of a guide as well which is always nice to have um he's been in it for a very long time he's been there done that so as a point of reference it's always nice to have that um on your on your on your phone just to be sure so it was a good clarification of things when

3:06 i need it right so you're kind of in a way a little bit like me because like a lot of people i speak to have all worked for big nationals and big companies and other companies and so if you worked with your dad before kind of like me in that sense i've never actually worked for another you work for your dad it's not like working for another firm is it no that's all known the benefit of working big firms then then you get the training provided and then eventually you will you will you move in your own direction that's what everyone seems to do they seem to go in the big firms get all the qualifications and after a few years to go and set up by themselves yeah it's a good way of doing it absolutely but not not everyone does but some do yeah some companies have a certain time of year where if you're leaving too early you've got to refund them either for the training or a percentage of the training, I would think.

3:56 So you're not just going there, train, and leave the next week to see if you are providing something. Did they get the work out of you first? Well, I would have thought so. I wouldn't have thought it would be that easy. I've got my certificate. I'm off.

4:11 Hello, Storm TV blog on YouTube. Hello, wherever you are. I hope you learned something. yeah jenston corrigan hello welcome um but now that's so when you were starting your pest control business as obviously you had an experience for your dad what was it like for you actually setting up your business like foundation with your dad and then yeah i was the business side like setting that bit up how was that i i would think setting up any company with anyone's always going to be quite daunting and getting off your feet and getting contracts doing the footwork is always quite quite bad because you may not know the industry well enough to sell it well enough so so you would gain it better with experience as you go along so so when you start off you got the training you have to develop your experience it's a very very hands-on industry isn't it um you can have all the qualifications i got my level two and my level three so um but realistically the more the more experience you can get hands-on the better it's always going to be for you to even sell yourself you have to know the industry well yeah yeah you do level three though well done you're part of the tiny percentage in the uk so yeah it was it was hard earned i mean i i will admit i did fail it i did but then i obviously did it again and i and i and i passed it um but

5:42 I will admit that certainly. But I think it's been a good road forward. I don't think I need any more training at the moment that I'm aware of. I don't think I need anything else as such. I've done my iPath as well, my ladder training, et cetera, et cetera. But, yeah, at the moment, I will just keep grinding and working before I do any other training for the moment. No, that's good to hear how that is. Obviously, when you were, like, starting up, how did you go about trying to get work were you on like google guaranteed or website i don't think i spent that much money on on advertising at first because because starting up so you're trying to keep costs down um but i just i just hammered the emails and just emailed as many companies as i could um in um handwritten emails and such trying to make it more more more more more personal um and then eventually you get a few takers you are you are good when you got to think of if you're getting 10 takers to go and look and see what they have you may well get one or two but at least you're starting to get them down the lines and the more the more you get the more confident you're going to be and then you learn how to get them you learn how what would actually work to get these contracts to actually call you back um and and you will get better at it when you are more experienced and then you can fund more advertising when i i've got a good websites i do a lot of social media stuff um i think i'm on google as well i can't remember what listing i'm on on google that way um and and and word of mouth um i'll probably say 40 percent of my work maybe 50 percent comes from word of mouth it's good that is because i do a bit of um

7:22 social media and that in the local area i'm quite known use that next next door app it does very well yeah but i've actually actually got called by one customer oh you're the low you're the next door celebrity i said no i'm not it's not always about pest control you see it's about other stuff i'm not just trying to push my service yeah yeah and uh yeah but no there was some good ideas i I mean, the contracts, boys, I'm still learning that. Because when I started in, like, 2020, I was, you know, when you start, I wasn't very good at talking to customers.

8:05 It took me a while to build that. I mean, it's always going to be developed. And the more of a database you can build, but you can only build a database through your years of experience. And the more people you were dealing with, and hopefully they'll always call you back. So a lot of my, during the MOSS season, my database is huge with regards to how many people i've dealt with over the years and they will call me back that's why i get so busy with wasp because they're calling me back from from previous years so so just building a natural database so just doing rat jobs wasps jobs bed bugs fleas etc and ensuring that that you do it properly and then eventually they would just call you back for the next problem yeah we generally get people every year that ring us back They expect you to remember, don't they?

8:47 I missed Jones from six years ago. Do you remember me? No, probably not. But I always say, I probably remember you when I get there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, same bit, yeah. So I had a lady call me today about squirrels that I did a wasp nest for her seven years ago. Yeah. And she's got squirrels now, so I'll be going on Thursday to go and deal with those. Yeah, it's always nice when people bring you back. I do. It is. You build friends and you build relations as well. I mean, my father's clients, a lot of my father's clients now that he's becoming retired, they're not just customers.

9:23 They've been friends for many, many years, 30, 40 years. So they're not just customers. They're good friends as well. Yeah, no. It's good to hear. It's good to hear other people can hear the advice. Because there's a lot of people starting out and people looking for advice here and there. to be fair you get you go out some quite good advice there when you were starting out yeah and even talking to your local pest controllers if they're happy to talk to you as well i mean i'm good friends with many many many many pest controllers around here and around the country as well so when you develop good relations with other pest controllers they will also help you and provide you with some work if they're a bit busy they'll give you a call could you go and do these couple of watts for me this week and then you're developing your own database as well so so it's building good relations with your local with your local competitors um without stepping on their toes if possible.

10:14 But when you're good friends with them, they will help you as well. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I get on with the majority of them around here. I speak to them. There's some, obviously, that don't like to speak to us, so that's fair enough. Yeah, that happens. But the vast majority do. But it's like, if you look at me now, from when I started in industry, I've got to speak up and all that. But it shows you how you go on the journey, isn't it? It is, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You're always learning, aren't you?

10:45 Because I'm learning so much. Yeah, it's a very educational industry. So again, going into the level three, that sort of helps me as well. But you have to keep up to date with things and talking to the reps of the manufacturers and the suppliers as well is a good way forward. WhatsApp groups, Facebook groups, it's all there. It's all there to be told and explained. I mean, when laws changed for us with regards to our building rate, the legislation of buildings, there was a bit of an uproar for a good a good several days when that first started then it all slowed down when people finally understood what it means and what you could always do and and what you would have to change which which is a big part of the changes but there's always things you can do so it's understanding you always have certain things to do that you can still do um but there's certain things you just can't do but you've got to work around it we have to do it well yeah it's it's like yeah i don't generally obviously because i've just sorted out all my um i've had my crew certificate because i had to send them off email but the crew declaration but i had to sign i just worked out how to do the signature on a tablet i've sent them off it's just signing on on it i couldn't work out how to do it i've sent them all off now yeah good yeah that's going to be the one um i mean this month's probably going to be a busy month for that kind of people registering their points for for for the first of january um i believe i'm all sorted i will check tomorrow just to be absolutely sure but i think i'm all

12:10 okay with mine um i'm here it's keeping the pest suppliers very very busy i think it's going to yeah and there's probably gonna there may possibly be a backlog hopefully not um i mean going into the holidays and things it may well be but yeah once you have them if it hasn't been gone through and you know you have them and you can prove you have them i i i wouldn't worry because you can prove you've got the points and the crew points needed and then if it's not registered by the 1st of january don't panic just do it a little bit afterwards and then you'll have it then so so just don't panic too much there's a lot of people still panicking about it now because uh yeah i'll be honest i'll see a post nearly every week somebody asking on facebook yeah well i'm like the information is everywhere it's everywhere you could possibly think yeah yeah if someone's asking the question the best thing to do is just answer it honestly yeah yeah i mean the one thing with social media i do find especially when new people are coming into the industry and i will recommend this if anybody's listening now this is very new into the industry if you have a question about pest control it doesn't matter how silly it is just ask it um i mean you will get some some

13:21 silly answers and you will get some people being sarcastic ignore them just go with the people who are answering the question and just just just just ignore that that that sarcasm that sometimes come with it because all of us were at your position at one time we were asking the same questions don't be afraid to do it sure that i can answer them we're always happy to help anybody and if you have a question we would rather you do it properly and safely than potentially illegally and unsafe yeah i mean there's not there's also if you withdraw bodies there's there's technical managers and the technical people that can help you but equally your pest supplier can actually help you if you're in them absolutely as well so there is or you can just speak to other pest controllers yeah they want to tell you the right stuff don't they so the lowers help you yeah well the facebook groups have got better over the years nowadays are so much better years i think so yeah i think they pile on you well if i'm going to tell you what do i might as well come and do it for you yeah silly comments like that but it's not the case not the point of it is it really because they're asking for help and it's just good well if they're really if they're always

14:35 going to get those kind of answers they're not going to ask for help and things can happen so they need to understand that yes ask the question ignore the sarcasm and read the ones that are that are nice and polite and to the point for what you need to do so no it's that it's fair fair points it is um it is but yeah that's some great advice there in general um yeah just don't don't be afraid because yeah

15:04 quite isn't the minute no nobody knows everything anyone who says they know everything they're lying there's people that have been in the industry 34 years i don't know everything yeah yeah but it's just when when you got somebody who's been doing it again for quite a while like myself again and other people i mean things have changed and they also have to have an understanding that of what has changed in the industry now um for what you could do 20 years ago you can't do now so it's it's keeping up with the times that you have to understand that it definitely is so i hear off you personally that you do a lot of bed bug work you do i do enough yeah yeah i could do it doing less but I can resist this I love doing them So what your I be honest I had probably one person that's talked about bed...

15:52 I've had Dr. Richard Naylor on here as well to talk about it. Well, I'm very lucky because Richard Naylor lives about five minutes from my house. So I am incredibly lucky. Did you get on with him? Pardon? Did you get on with him? Oh, very well. Yeah, absolutely. He's... He's if he's listening now. Hey, Richard, how are you? If he is there. But he's filled in the gaps of bed bug work that I've asked him over the years to a point where he's just an extraordinary man. And his wife as well, lady, obviously, of information to provide.

16:26 He's filled in so many gaps. He's done chemical testing for me a few years ago. I just gave him a bunch of active ingredients and said, can you find out what works and what doesn't? I've got the data as well I post that I send that to you Sean later the data that Richard gave me for that and and you can put that on your page so it's showing the mortality rate of all these different active ingredients that we have so he's a fantastic source of information where I've gained so much knowledge from Richard that he's just an absolute gentleman to do it and he lives so local as well but have but have you offered to give him a night off and sleep in in the lab with the bugs oh he does oh yeah yeah have you given him the night off when you say i'll sleep in it oh no no never never no no i don't think so no no i don't know about that but uh but no he's he's um yeah i think he's been i think he's been doing for around 30 35 years i think it could be more be less not too sure but but he's he's in my opinion the foremost experts on bed bugs on the planet personally um so he has provided me and my colleagues with a lot of information and filled in a lot of gaps about bed bugs and how bed bugs work and how they operate it's a very big understanding for us it's one thing to apply chemically to apply heat systems but if you can understand the bed bug and how they work with males and females whether the females are moving away from male clusters

17:53 because of the mating process that that can naturally move them around a room we even without a host to a point but you've got to have a lot of bed bugs for that to happen so several hundred bed bugs for that to start happening so understanding how how bed bugs naturally move and operate is a very big thing to understanding and how you're going to solve a problem because if you're just applying chemically without understanding it you're going to be there for a long time and keep in applying regularly whereas when you understand them better you would know where to look more you would know when when you're getting dormant bed bugs coming back into chemical actions um and he's made me understand that maximum doses isn't necessarily the best way forward okay yeah so when you think of maximum doses to minimum doses you you want the bed bug to be in the chemical action as long as possible so a maximum dose insecticide when looking at alpha-cypermethan, cypermethan, or even pipernubotoxide and things, it can have an irritant factor.

18:53 So we can actually push them away from the chemical action for a time before the chemical gets less potent and less active. And then they're coming back into the chemical action more because it's not irritating them as much. So I'm not talking about applying minimum dose, around 30 mil if you're looking at Symmetrol potentially for that. So think of being in the sun for too long. You have to seek the shade. It's a similar thing. So if you're in the chemical action for too long, it's too irritable, then they're going to be seeking other areas where there's no chemical action or less of it.

19:26 So less is more, certainly less is more. My main three active ingredients are alpha-cypromethrin, Fendona, pipidipatoxide, and it's going to be cypromethrin, either Simitrol, even Citrol 40 as well um for those actions um and when you're when you have applied chemically when their bed bugs are coming into a chemically exposed area from a non-chemically exposed area they are producing enzymes to break down insecticides so they are they are doing that naturally so that's more the resilience as opposed to the resistance side of it so resistance obviously when they're fully resistant their enzyme production is very very advanced and they can break down these products incredibly quickly and efficiently as well so the slight resilience is when they have naturally when they're breaking down insecticides through their enzyme production so you want them to be in there as long as possible to have the most doses possible and the only way to get that is to have it on the minimum or half dose the setting really um and and really when they're being exposed to a chemical action it's around sort of 10 10 to 12 days for them to actually obtain a lethal dose through those intermittent exposures.

20:38 I can tell you do talk to Richard a lot. You know your stuff, right? But this is what I've learned from Richard, and this is why I'm very, very, very glad to have him and actually know him. He's filled with a lot of gaps throughout the years. Do you do, you mentioned chemical, do you do any of these heat treatments or steam treatments? Yeah, I'm a big, big, huge fan of the Pulte. I've got two poultry systems at the moment.

21:06 So I use that probably 95% of my bed bug work. So if you've got 500 bed bugs in front of you, you're better off steam. If you have a steamer, you're better off steaming them because if you have 500 bed bugs in front of you, you're going to have egg systems in those clusters as well. So you're better off steaming it and killing them, dehydrating them very, very quickly. And you are going to get a huge number of dead bed bugs as a percentage quite quickly. so really within the first treatment if you're doing the heat system a polysimex and a sort of chemical boundary treatment as well you're possibly killing 60 to 70 percent of the bedbugs that are there in in that first treatment over the course of those several days you are getting that kind of percentage anyway and then you have bedbugs that are further afield that have to come back into the chemical action and or to an area where you could treat them with heat again as well um i've i've done bedbug work and completed it with just the steam system upon request from the client but it's taken it's taken seven to ten treatments over sort of three or four day intervals you have to give time for anyone's to come back but but but then you've got a monitor on top of that as well so it can be done but it's quite it's quite more intensive to do that i could imagine that that cost the client quite a bit more it was a lot more yeah yeah i'll probably say almost double almost double the usual cost i mean for for a two-bedroom house i i normally try to reveal the charges now i would normally charge between four and five hundred pound plus vat um is the usual costs and my main time scale is about two months so application chemically with

22:38 the simex is going to be every every four weeks um i don't normally go into the third unless i can justify it that may just involve heat treatments down the lines um and and with phoemone trapping as well but i tend to stay there for at least two months throughout the whole treatment because of any of any dormancy depending on how severe the problem is it's good to be around for those extra couple of weeks even if nothing happens if something does you can be involved straight away um and it's to ensure that the client knows you're there for that period of time because of any dormancy any any eggs or any bed bugs you can't physically get to have to come back um again femores naturally moving away from male clusters and when you've got thousands of bed bugs in front of you the natural pheromone produced by the bed bug could actually overpower the human pheromones who would agree where you get some dormancy anyway so you're going to have to get that pheromone thinned out over the period of time for them to reactivate again to come back into the host area and you have that a lot with rental properties when somebody's moved out of a property where there's been bed bugs and they've gone dormant somebody moves in over the seven

23:41 ten day period they're starting to get bitten again when they're reactivating and then you get a wave effect so you have bed bugs reactivating again coming to the host you kill them off and get quite periods of time for maybe a week and then you get reactivations again so it's like a wave effect coming in and out so you've got to be there on and to deal with that so dealing with it on on that principle of a rental property can take longer because you have that kind of a wave effect of activation of bed bugs coming coming through it does make sense it does so you know you mentioned a two-month period you obviously mentioned that price surely that's not for the whole two months there's got to be a bit more that normally covers the sort of first month um when you've got the first treatment going to the second treatment um and and depending on the conditions i mean the the main monitoring doesn't take long once you know where to look and you're pretty efficient at looking around it doesn't take too long at all i mean i may charge an extra 150 pound on top of that if it's really things for me to do but so but usually there's probably one in one in five i'll have to charge a little bit extra on top of that just to do maybe another heat

24:45 treatments together with a bit more monitoring to ensure. But it's reassuring the client that, and they've been through a lot when it comes to bed bugs, they've probably spent thousands of pounds trying to do it themselves. So being there throughout that period of time, this gives them a bit more trust in you to do the job well, and you're there to help if anything does change. I think it's great, honestly. Are you part of that lady bed bug? No, queen bed bug. Oh, you've got a queen? Yes, I do know of her.

25:16 She's very good. If she's listening, hello. She's got a Facebook group. She does, yeah. Oh, I think it's Bedbugs UK, I think. It might be something different, so I can't remember which one. But no, she's very good. Very good. Oh, yes. Because she gets a lot. She's actually banned bite pictures. Yeah, because you can never really tell with it. I mean, Bedbug bites potentially align, flea bites clustered in any sort of sweaty areas. but it is very difficult to really say whether you're there you're there directly and inspecting the bed it could be other things couldn't it it could be allergic reaction it could be mosquitoes could be fleas um it is very inappropriate i mean clients send me bed bug bites photos and i say look i need to come and have a look and usually i don't charge to come and have a look and see if it is bed bugs but if it is then we talk about pricing we talk about treatments and then we go from that okay uh yeah thanks jason from asbest control he's got a question for you carry on um i'll have to go a bit closer with the phone so you might see it see up my nose i'll read it for you yeah do you use carpet theme attachment for the carpet or hard floors i do i have had really good results especially on flea treatments yeah well he's made a good point there with hard flooring so it's a hard flooring is always a bit tricky when you're spraying because technically if you are applying chemically um it's good to get concentrations in between the boards but you can make good vibration to hatch any kind of flea infestations with the hard boards um getting the steam close and down into it if you can get good pressure into it over the period

26:54 of time it'll work really well i've i've used this for moths on hard flooring good good results as well but the steamers it's a very versatile piece of kit so yeah good um i've had good results the attachments are good um you can get other ones but keeping the pressure high is always is always is always the key for it and and the simec system is not designed to be used quickly so so applying it slowly to build up pressure build up the heat and i normally go over a bed with a steamer twice so you do it once thoroughly and and you may get bed bugs that are running away my evenings for cockroaches as well it was great for cockroaches um you've got to chase them a little a bit but it does work um so when inside electrical things and ovens and tumble dries etc it works well but yes for hard flooring stamping about making vibrations steaming through as soon as the steam touches them within three or four feet they'll be dead and the more eggs you can get the better so yeah very good very good yeah no thanks for that thanks for that good question jason yeah if you can read the questions out so let me put the phone right to my face it could jason's commented so far no other comments i'm gonna ignore them they were kids on youtube they

28:03 were they were what sorry who were they they were kids on youtube i don't know who they were okay but if you could condition become a pest controller we'll help you get there and uh yeah yeah well someone's to be one hey he's yeah yeah yeah someone's got to do it well yeah um but now you've got i'll tell you one thing i look on your website i think you should change your bed book page and make an emphasis on how much how well you do it because your page is quite brief but your knowledge is vast it is i think you should make a bit more of a i'd call you a bit of a specialist you really get it you do well i do my best i mean again i've learned this from my father throughout the years and again through richard as well and it's things where if you talk to the right people you will learn the right things and and if you talk to the wrong people you're not going to learn anything apart from doing it wrong so it's really talking to as many people as you can i mean i'll give my kudos to them my father and richard as well you know i've only known this by talking to them so um and i'm always happy to and yourself is always happy to pass knowledge through to anybody who wants it absolutely this knowledge will definitely help people definitely will um with oh what was i going to say

29:19 well the one thing that blew my mind that richard said on the beauties and beasties i brought it uh just trying to think he said that a lot of the resistance build up is actually the manufacturer's fault and i know you're worried because i didn't realize that they the basis and that they they they coated pyrethroids i didn't know they're all coated i didn't and that's part of the point it's not all because everyone always thought it's the pest controllers felt was spraying it but apparently it's not it's actually impregnated into the um bases of the bed that blew my mind that did i just thought it was i just thought it was pest controllers fault no no never our fault i mean the three main products that i use again when you go back the ones that that richard showed me with regards to the mortality rate pipinubatoxide alpha cypermethrin again with fendonis obviously the newer ones out now from historical product being brought back and and cypermethrin um and that's simetrol i mean simetrol has got the rtu which you can use on mattresses the the neat version you can't with that.

30:29 So those are the three main ones that I would use. And that's based on what Richard has found. So we only want to use the ones that work. When I was chatting to Tim Bloom, probably last year, maybe this year, about bedbugs and actually what it costs the pest controller to do it. So if you're using products, I mean, some products may have better results in different parts of the UK compared to where I have, absolutely. I'm not mocking any other manufacturer or anything at all. We just use what works is the main thing because we're charging the client.

30:59 It's their money. It's our profession. So when you have products that don't work, I won't name any. I don't want to be sued today. Products that are not effective against bedbugs. You are doing more visits, even if they're cheap and costing you less money to use on the job. You're making more profits. You therefore spending more money in the revisits than what it is using a more effective product where you doing less So you have to use products that work well I mean everyone got their favorite ones those those those those three I said before my ones I know work well and with the monitoring with the persistence you can you can you can do it so it's about using the right product that does work because that client's paying you to do that job they're not paying you to save money they're paying you to do the job so using the correct products it's not that much more expensive in reality um i mean a few more pound per per per mix but it's not enough to for me to change to make a cheap product and go there more times so so using the right products and then simex is a great system having one of those has been a good asset so don't don't skimp on the active ingredients and the ones that work well um and and and and speak to people like richard he knows what works well um i might send him some more products down the line and you can you can do some more testing but i can make the testing he did for me a while ago available for for anyone who wants to see it and they can i'll um ping that over to you at the

32:26 end and you can you can stick it on at the end yeah yeah cheers for that no i'm really impressed with your bed book and everyone has their own ways of doing things there will be people who disagree with how i do it which is absolutely fine and i'm always happy to learn new things and it's just how I like to do it. And others have different products. It works for them. Fantastic. It doesn't matter as long as it works. And some people do, I think Richard Barry does the big heat systems, which work great for him.

32:54 He's fantastic at doing that. He's a good bank of knowledge for that. And it works for him. And he goes all over the UK doing that. I will ask him on at some point next year. I've got the Begberg Queen lines at February, I think, next year. Oh, lovely. I'll be watching that. Oh, yeah, definitely. I have. I've seen you at Pestitec, because you found me. She says, I've been looking for you all day. She finally found me. I was like, well. You found you. Because Richard messaged me, actually. He said, I'm so sorry.

33:22 What do you mean? He says, I did see you at Pest Tech, but he says, you look really busy. And I was surrounded by people asking me more questions. I says, don't worry. I says, it was a blur that day. It was. It was. It was a good event. It was a good event. I enjoyed it. Really enjoyed it. Yeah, I've never been to the BP Pest X. is it called? yeah Pestex yeah next year I'll be going down I'll be there talking about Asian Hornets I'll be on one of the stands there doing that so that'll be fun I had a great time I've never been to that before no it'll be myself it'll be my first time there next year as well so that'll be that'll be my first time there certainly will and I'll be giving a talk about some Asian Hornets so I better be sure I get brushed up on the knowledge properly again It's a bit different for you though, isn't it?

34:14 Yeah, I've talked to colleges historically. I've given talks, but then when you're talking in front of a lot of people who know what they're doing, people are very good at their job. That's boring. It is. You have to be a different level. You have to be there professionally. You have to be there with as much information as possible you can because there's people there that know a lot more about it than me. you're on the bpca board yeah yeah yeah i've been you're in there very good fun yeah you're enjoying it yeah very well so absolutely it's interesting it's not what you think when you go in though it's very it's it's a little bit different but it's interesting yeah it is it is very much but um but yeah so you wanted to mention because you're a big advocate for well you like to use the product cilantro in a lot of your work yeah i i i like to use products that work and and i'm always i'm always lucky enough i would say and and um uh yeah lucky would be the word um to be able to use these products before they come onto market to get a good knowledge behind them um and and provide up a future for future use for the manufacturers and pest controllers so yes um cilantro polycastle fell as a whole um i do i do thoroughly enjoyed it when even with agricultural use i've actually got it on probably 95 of my farms now as a as the primary redenticide there for the moment yeah okay do you do any um do you do any like iron farms like biosecurity places like that probably the highest end when i use on is a biogas facility up in i think there was there was there was there was a photo with a while ago when they specifically requested cilantro and that that's because they have in a

36:05 hugely open area they have barn owls they have they have cestrel they got birds of prey they got scavenger bridge which are all still there um at the moment um and and they specifically requested this um uh as the only product for that site so cordycasofero itself can be used but specifically with cilantro um uh for that one so i do have both harmonics and cilantro there um i would do are both products there. I think most of it at the moment is reverted back to non-toxic because many areas have shown little to no activity of rats for quite some time now.

36:40 But it's a horrendously clean site as well. So that's got a huge advantage because Codicastroferro is very dependent on what the conditions of the competing food sources are. So I find with agriculture, how I've found it working well, if the clients, if the farmer's happy to pay the extra costs um and i'm basing it on an arable farm if you can clear and and proof as best as you possibly can you will get the maximum results with with chronic acid feral and define when it doesn't work what i found when it wasn't working the competing food source um was was an interference but once you've solved that it works wonderful and and 95 some odd percent of of cilantro even chronic acid feral as a whole on both products i will still get an uptake but i knew it could be better so you have to prep the site well i find if you can and if the farmer's happy to pay for the extra work yes um for you to get the maximum and that's where you saved money um when you're using it without putting the major work into it you will lose money because you've got to do more visits and change things around it sort of teaches you to be a basic pest controller again go back to the basics look at the proofing look at the hygiene which you have to do really anyway and it provides you with that benefits that's where it saves you the money so so working with the farmer as best as possible if they'll let you will make you save money because you've

38:01 got to do less visits because it is having the best efficacy on the bait the best the best action well that's that's a fair point it is if you get the farmer to work alongside dairy farms are the worst we all know dairy farms are hard to prove because you because you've got so many open feed areas many farmers don't let you do it they won't pay the extra which is just a shame because if they're requesting it they've got to understand prep work has to be done for it to work better and if they're paying you to do a job they want you to do it as best as possible so they have to work with you to do it um and and farmers that again i've learned through my years farmers that don't work with you you're probably costing you money at the end of the year is more what the contract's worth and and are they really worth your time probably not because if you're wasting time having to go there bear the brunt of all the insults from the farmer there's rats everywhere we explain why there's rats everywhere and and they don't want to help you you have to you have to be firm and and really if it costs you money just move on to the next get rid of them move on to the next but if if they are happy to work with

39:01 you with again chronic acid ferrol um most of my farmers don't want it now they've signed up for other five-year contracts and they're very happy with it so it's prepping the site understanding about the mode of action keeping things clean as best as you can and hopefully the farmer will understand that if you do that you'll have no rats your machinery's safe you're you're you're preventing any kind of cross contaminants not just from the rats themselves but the faeces if they're bringing in matter from outside into their grain store if they're eating their grain if they're defecating in it dead bodies in it if it causes the farmer to apply grain bait on the ground we've seen that and again that's around the grain store your your job shouldn't be to kill the rats entirely your job should be to protect their livelihood and and if you can think of it on those terms and explain it that way hopefully they'll they'll they'll they'll listen more i gotta be honest i mean i've probably got two farms and they're just grain stores you know that's i say two farms they're literally two grain stores next to each other by the same i say farmer but he's not he just puts grain in them and that's yeah that's all i've got but

40:08 but uh there is people out this information will really help it will because i've got quite a few people that just do farm work and they yeah they said they've got their good clients and they've got the clients that don't listen to them absolutely and absolutely when we're looking back on cilantro for how i used it first when i first started using it before i was on the market um the best results i got again go back to an alba farm um i found with the start of it uptake was slow when they had access to competing sources of food but what i found on a different farm is is is doing it differently by by completely proofing the barn every single bit i could find stopping them getting in letting them feed upon their stored food already for sort of seven to ten days with applying the bait stations on the first day let them acclimatize to that then you apply the cilantro then i got uptake so quickly and i actually killed the entire farm of the population of rats within seven to ten days within five visits very easy very easy to go along with and that's what i found worked the best and trying to implement that on all my farms some some agree with it some don't most of the ones that don't i'm probably going to bump off

41:17 mid-year when their contracts do anyway but the ones that do fantastic very easy contracts to do i actually love the way you talk about these farms the way you do business because it seems like you do a very good job because i heard you mention there some of them have signed up for five years yeah but that's lucky i'm just lucky with that one i mean my contracts on farms are rolling contracts but but when farmers can see the value for money yes it's more expensive at the start when you're looking at proofing what you can some things you just can't proof i mean there are situations where you just can't do it but you've got to do things differently you've got maybe do trapping shooting as well um with that but but the the more confidence the farmer can have in you and that's based on the products and that's based on how you use them um the the more the more like they will keep the contracts going and talk to other farmers as well.

42:07 But the more farmers that recognize that this product needs prep work, quality customer feral as a whole needs prep work before you can get the best results. It's not just applying, hoping, look at it on what's going to suit you best and make you the most profits. And that is going to be competing food sources and move as best as possible. Hygiene as much as you can. Some farmers don't do it yet. Fine, you have to work around this. But at the end of the day, it saves you money. And that's where you save it with chronic acerferol is by reducing that and getting them on the product.

42:38 You're using less product. The visits are normally every three weeks, maybe two weeks monthly. And that's where you save the money. Use it well. Think about the mode of action and what can make that better. Yeah. So with that, I can tell you're quite good at selling. Because you mentioned the value. Yeah, experience sometimes. you seem like you understand how to talk to farmers like provide the value yeah so as we discussed before about attending constantly first start is knowing your products knowing the industry how they work you can explain it better you can give them more knowledge on on how you're going to operate and do the job and the reason why you need to do it in certain ways yeah and that's just developing an understanding isn't it through it yeah no you are right it's just uh you see you're You weren't very good for words when it comes to farms.

43:32 Some people can talk to farmers and some people can't. Yeah, there's a way around with farmers. Again, farmers want to get the best value out of their money. They want to squeeze every penny, which is rightly so, absolutely. And the only way to do that, I mean, they don't care how much it costs me to do the contract. If they sign the contract for X amount of money, they don't care how much extra it costs me. But it does at the end when I say you've got to look for somebody else because you've just cost me an extra £500 a year by not listening to me.

43:59 then that's when you're either going to pay that back or you're going to change what you're doing. If not, you can find somebody else. So don't be afraid to say no. And don't be afraid to say, look, you're costing me money by not listening to me. This is why you've got the problems. And I'm here to do a job, and you're not letting me do my job. And don't be afraid to either put your foot down or just walk away. Okay. Yeah. Because if it costs you money, it's costing you money and it's pointless.

44:26 Jason is here again. he's under his jason account now not not asbest control have you baited with harmonix and what and what are your results i find harmonix harmonix is when you can burrow bait so you can't with so burrow baits with harmonix is fine you have to secure it well um again you have the primary exposure to um non-tigot species which is always going to be be a bit be an issue so you have to keep things safe um you do end up using a lot less than what you think when you're pulse baiting with harmonics um when you can get it to the source it's always the best option getting the bedetizer to the source is always going to be your your your money maker with that to actually resolve a problem as fast and as efficiently as you possibly can so anchoring the baits is is very necessary don't cover the holes with soil because that will encourage the rats to dig out of the bait potentially so what i tend to do is cover it with a brick and leave a small gap at the base where the rats can see a way out and that tends to stop them digging but having depth of bait is very crucial so choosing the right hole is going to be a very big thing so don't go with the ones that are um that would lead the baits potentially fall down from gravity

45:39 look at the vertical holes the deep vertical holes where you can secure it very well and deep okay so good results yes yes good results yes that's good to hear that that's yeah that's a different method that is but no you're right they won't they give this if there's a gap yeah so it's it's discouraging the digging as best as you can um because that could expose baits as well um with that so you used to get a lot of that with grain baiting and burrow baiting um with that where you would cover the hole then a lot of the grain bait will be dug out to the surface and you've got to quick clear it back up so it's it's sure and and and and not encouraging them to dig as as much as possible so yeah there's there's one that i always hear uh with cali cali cali cali cali caciferol why is that right coli caciferol i probably said it wrong myself i don't know people are always saying oh it needs to be in grain form and i know that would very not the the for what i gather with grain form they they they i could be wrong they um they can't get the the the conicus fell to penetrate the grain enough for it to be um inside the grain itself so they can't penetrate the grain with this as opposed to what you can do with buddhifu

46:56 and burbada and so on so so a pellet form would be nice a pellet they could do yeah i heard something similar at a seminar and someone asked that and he it was nearly bang on what you said he says they tried but they can do it yeah so a platform could be nice uh i sure there may be things down I think in America they got it in a wax block I think I will double-check that. I should have double-checked it before I said it really here now, but I think they've got it as a wax block in the USA. Completely different world than America, isn't it?

47:28 Yeah, yeah. It is. It's a bit crazy. My American friends won't mind me saying that. if it's state by state in america it's all different it is at least we haven't got that to contend with no no i think california's banned the devil's size haven't they i think um you should get jasmine from pettoe back on here she'll know yeah i can't remember if the problem is the world keeps following what california are doing it's worrying yeah yeah well hopefully well we won't go into the data this country at the moment but yeah uh jason reckons they should make harmonics into a block form that will be better than the past the pasta form yeah so so each it's it's it's formulation that we have in in redemptor science has its own area where it would work the best so grain baits will always have their own area where they work the best same as blocks same as contacts etc etc so um i mean at the moment the soft the soft the soft block i do find works quite well um i don't know what what envy we're going to be doing any further lines um i'm not sure what cilantro are going to be doing bass are going to be doing for any different formulations i'm sure something will come out soon um six to seven years probably that's what i'm hearing on all new products they said like you said that all new

49:01 i heard a talk once they said that the average new product gets registered you're looking about six to seven years for the hsc to approve it yeah potentially yeah that's crazy long time very long time more's getting removed than added yeah i mean it's always good to have if if something gets removed i mean they are looking at what alternatives would we have but look at pike md when that was removed the other alternative was the quartz or was going to be the vulcan isn't it so there were there were alternatives there and from what i gather the amount um the manufacturer was making in profits compared to what it cost to renew the license for it wasn't wasn't matching no because it was more of a business sense which make which which which really is a business and and they've got to make profits.

49:50 And we have to adapt. We have to adapt to it, don't we, sir? Because obviously with VicamD, I think I spoke to John from Killjam, and he said it's like this, Sean, you make more money out of a box of VicamD than the manufacturers do. You make thousands out of one tub. But the first net covers the box of Vicam, doesn't it? The first net covers the tub, and the rest of it's, I wouldn't say pure profit, but the rest of it's a lot of profit. Well, yeah. but he said to them as a company it's not big money no no no no that will be at all no no no even with cilantro even with cilantro when people say about the cost of cilantro they don't make that much onto it i don't know the figures i've spoken to lawrence about that um but i'm sure they don't make that much either at all um yeah and it's how you use it and again go back into the savings for the cost of cilantro you can you can save your money by prepping the So I'm looking at agricultural purposes and equine yards and things.

50:47 You will save money by prepping the site, which the client has to pay for realistically. And when they're looking at a long-term contract, you will save it by prevention, just standard hygiene, proofing, keeping things clean. No, it's great advice. There's a lot of people I know that do that. I'm sure you've given that great advice on cilantro and, you know, Harmanek, well, mainly cilantro, but Harmanek as well. No, I'll talk about both. i use both i'm not paid by anybody i'm not paid by bachap or anything i wasn't suggested that i did see both products work fantastically well absolutely and and they're there to work and they're there and and they wouldn't if if they didn't work they wouldn't be there it's how you use them with any product it's how you use it so and and when things don't work some things not um something's there making it not work that you need to change if you want to use that product there if you have to use that product there and it's not working something needs to change to make it work no it definitely does it's um i did see you on the basic stand i'm sure you had a t-shirt on too you know i had my work shirt or they wouldn't get they didn't send me a bass half shirt i keep asking but they won't send me one so i got my work shirt on i'm a little normal it was a it was a blur that day was i thought you had one on sorry but yeah but uh but no but um yeah i think i think is there anything else you want to you want to mention or yeah yeah let's go back to bed bugs um yeah richard found some some information the the earliest ever record of bed bugs in this country that he found was in from 1586 and that's from

52:30 this country so we've had them in this country since 1586 and then how they used to to deal with bed bugs in their properties there was put a pig in the bed the bed bugs would feed upon the pig have their feed then the host would switch with the pig okay that's a good thing to talk about with clients with so i i always say about christmas meals when you got pigs in blankets i say oh no that's actually from from from from when the bed bugs and then with the pigs in the bed and and most bed bugs when you think of what we do within the uk yes we have our bed bugs that have been here since since then and all year round but so many bed bugs come from different countries that we need to know what what what what insecticides would work against that strain of bed bug that that that the epidemiology of bed bug from that country to this country so anyone who's listening if you have bed bugs where you know they come from a foreign country try and collect live samples untreated samples and send them into richard and he will do some chemical testing and then he will he will use that for his own database and and you will then know what would work what won't work against that that particular strain that's a good thing

53:33 he's doing there because he helps everyone. It does. Absolutely. It does. It's, well, yeah, because they are coming from all over the world. People are traveling. Absolutely. It only takes a few to jump on your luggage bag. Yeah, I went to New York before our COVID lockdown and I actually had some on my suitcase when I got it back from Heathrow. So somebody's suitcase had bed bugs on it, which they transferred to mine through vibration or something. And I could see them on the conveyor belt. I thought, great, somebody's bought brought bed bugs onto onto my suitcase so yeah yeah got home put the back of the van up i got the steam around steamed it for about half an hour before i took it in the house so you didn't kill the bed bugs with your fingers just before i did a few i did a few yeah yeah i did as many as i could in the airport and then um got in my car my van drove home and then i thought well i'll get the steam around and steam them at two o'clock in the morning steaming my luggage put everything in the dryer so it does happen oh yeah it can happen it can it can but yes um some great advice there about anything else what you're trying to chat about because oh god yeah that's all my real knowledge um i'm cautious of time because i wasn't sure how long you had yeah yeah i've got to stop in a few minutes and try to think of anything i can quickly say um i would say anyone new in the industry if they have any queries talk to me ensure that anybody else you have there talk to your reps for the manufacturers talk to the bpca mpta talk to us we're all listening we're all happy to help um yes we are two different different membership organizations but um but no we are we are just normal people normal pest controllers and we're there to help so um yeah

55:17 absolutely so to ask the questions you won't you won't know the answer until you ask the question so go right ahead and if you want to email me message me personally fine if you've got queries just let them let them rip I'll do my best to answer as best as I can no definitely definitely right there you are but yeah thanks for coming on that's alright no problem who would you like to see on this podcast well the Bedford Queens one definitely I wish it's been on already Robert Moon would be a good one speak to Robert Moon from France have a good chat with him he's been on the beauties and beasties so he might come on yeah give him a shout I think within the next I think Asian Hornets eventually will be a pest control job there well there's nothing against the law that says we can't treat them we can treat them but that's the legal side of things it's about them for preface I said eventually I'm talking years to come.

56:23 Oh, years to come. There will be something that we would have to deal with. We will get lots of calls out. The legal side is obviously reporting the Asian Hornets through the database, the AOPH. There is that there, yes. When you look at our involvement with Asian Hornets, which should have been from the start, absolutely. The AOPH will suddenly have 35,000 people who are qualified, experienced enough to deal with this particular type of pest. and ready to go at a moment's notice when you're dealing with an invasive species when you've got minimum people dealing with it when in reality they should have had the entire industry helping to monitor to track and trace which is the sort of hardest part the track is the hardest bit and and to treat as well of an invasive species there'll be a lot less asian hornets every year even up to now for when it was 2016 wasn't it in tepbe where the first one was found that there should never be an increase, there should be a decrease in the amount of nests they're doing every year.

57:25 So they've got to think to themselves one day, we're going to need some more help with this, but I guess there's thousands a year, like it is in Jersey, and so on and so on and so on. More people have to be involved. There has to be physically more people involved to deal with this. Oh, it does. I think eventually they'll just admit defeat and they'll let them. Yeah, when they admit defeat, it's going to be too late. I'll be honest, I think they're already there. Yeah, absolutely. The nest numbers are increasing, but many increase, not decrease.

57:55 They're in Ireland now. They found them in Cork and near Dublin this year. Are they? Okay. Yeah, they found two nests. I think it was two nests. There could be more. So they're there now as well. But yeah, apparently I've heard recently that a lot of queens have been bound, so that means they're kicking queens out. Yeah, but any nests you miss, you're going to have 70, 80, 90 queens that are going to be out there propagating for next year's nests. you're thinking the amount of damage dark and derelict absolutely yeah absolutely again having Robert in is going to be a good one because seeing him do them the stigma I found against Asian Hornets there was no major regression there was some aggression when we treated them yes we were suited up we were dealing with that way but even the ones that were treated weren't that aggressive I approached a couple of nests on purpose without a suit to give off my complete body heat with that and there was no regression at all no no no that's a bit possibly a bit silly to do it yes but but i did it on on on proving a point um and when you're finding nests if you find them with a machete yeah you're gonna you're gonna really really pee them off so and and even when you treat to be treating them quickly but somebody treated the wasp nest you've treated it you're done you're having a cup of tea and it's same with the horn it's there the asian horn you treat it you're walking away and you're done and and the main part where you may get stuck are the four and the ones from the insecticide so yeah there's a bit of a stigma against them and it's how you find them they can be found with thermal cameras as well thermal spotters so robert did some recently i think he put on social media

59:28 where he was spotting them with thermal spotters um monoculars so they can also be found that way so quite active yes it'll be quite active to do i suppose it's a heat source though i've actually i've actually treated what's next like this in someone's if you look from the outside this lady was living in front of her son's house, she's in a little flat thing, mobile home, and you could see the wasps going in at the bottom. They were obviously going in the bottom, they're going up the top, and when I went in there, you could hear the nest was in the corner.

1:00:03 So what I did was I got the thermal out, the thermal, checked where they were, made a little pierce and used aerosol and sealed it. killed it and are used to firmware you could see you could see the nest dying absolutely yeah yeah so the track and trace is going to be the hardest one i think using gps trackers uh we're not sure whether they use them this year certainly hopefully next year which will which will certainly reduce the time to find the nest um i mean it would be nice if we could develop our own version of track and trace and then treat as well as an industry because just just just completely have our own version of it there's nothing stopping us doing that um as long as we report them to aoph as well so it's going to be an expense we may have to find some sort of funding for that it would be it would be interesting uh a lot of the public were just reporting european on it yeah so misidentification is the big thing someone doing wasps as well um yeah so so having having knowledge and and having people with knowledge to do that properly i mean as even as space controllers we can we can apply traps to our contracts and have specific people to look at them for us couldn't we really so we have many places we can monitor for these for these asian hornets around the country uh with all of our contracts that's a huge a huge

1:01:21 amount of people that can do it anyway but it's obviously funding the traps funding the baits funding the treatment as well so there's got to be there's got to be an incentive to do this otherwise we are business people we got we got money to make and we we got things to run so um well you know uh sean that part of the beauties and beasts he actually offered this local area, they were doing treatments for the Asian Hornets. He offered his services to go and help them for free. Of course they wouldn't be.

1:01:51 No, no, no. Which, again, there's nothing stopping us doing ours, but then we've got to look at the finances behind that as well to do it. I mean, I've got some traps in Tetbury and Quennington near Sirencester where there was activity around there, but nothing showed up on that, which is okay. but they're about they'll be around us I'd say in the next couple of years three years maybe we'll see them more prolifically I think I mean Kent has a lot of them anyway the majority of them are down that way but we'll see them more often than bigger numbers yeah so yeah I think it's been a good one thanks for coming on that's alright no problem at all it's really impressive to not be all vast knowledge no you do me as well absolutely absolutely but yeah thanks for that and I will try I'll contact Robert Moon next to get him on.

1:02:43 I might be... Yeah, I'll give him a nudge for you as well. Yeah, give him a nudge. Will do. Will do. Bryce, thank you, Sean. It's been wonderful, mate. Really good. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Take care, guys. See you now. Bye. Bye-bye.